A few days ago, I began a series of studies about a figure called Satan, who or what figure is as is understood in the Bible, while pointing out that this is not the same as how we have come to know that figure today. Thus far, we have discovered that Satan is not an archangel, as is supposed, nor is he even an angelic figure. Christian tradition supposes he is the serpent that tempted the woman in Genesis 3, but we’ve found that there simply is not enough information there to point to a sentient, evil, angelic being. Instead, the metaphorical figure seems to point to Adam, vis-à-vis it was he who adopted a plan to seduce his wife into testing the word of God at Genesis 2:17 by eating of the tree (Genesis 3:6), which the Lord warned Adam not to eat. At this point in our study of this figure, since the Bible doesn’t describe an evil spiritual being called Satan or the serpent of Eden, does it describe a spirit being, whom we have come to believe to be Satan, but is really called the Devil?[1]
The Apocalypse mentions there coming to be war in heaven (Revelation 12:7), whereby the Dragon and his messengers fought Michael and his messengers. The Dragon lost the battle and was cast out of heaven (verse-8), and at that time he is identified as “that old serpent,” who is called the Devil and Satan, very same who deceives the world (verse-9). At this point the text announces the coming of “salvation, strength, and the Kingdom of God… for the Accuser of our brethren is cast down…” (Revelation 12:10).
Many would consider this scripture to be proof of the existence of an evil sentient spiritual being very much like the traditional figure we’ve come to know as Satan, the Devil. However, we should keep in mind that it is probably unwise to derive a literal interpretation from the most symbolic book in our Bible. If this is logical and true, what may we say of Revelation 12:7-10?
In chapter 10 of Luke’s Gospel narrative, Jesus sends out the Seventy disciples to preach to those places and cities he would visit on his way to Jerusalem from Galilee (Luke 10:1). Upon their return to him, they rejoice in finding that even the demons were subject to them through Jesus’s name (Luke 10:17). How Jesus replied is significant. He said: “I beheld Satan, as lightening, fall from heaven!” (Luke 10:18). Scholars conclude that this points to an original rebellion in heaven prior to the creation of mankind, but such an interpretation is pure supposition. Not an ounce of proof is submitted by anyone to show this is a valid understanding. If, however, we allow the sending out of the Seventy to be what is symbolized in the Apocalypse (Revelation 12:7-10), we are able to conclude what Jesus and his disciples were doing in the spirit. The preaching was physical, but the effect is spiritual. If this is so, then the terms, satan, serpent and devil point to physical figures, not spiritual entities. But, is this logical and true?
Scripture often connects certain men with the devil or the ‘accuser’ of God’s people. Paul called Elymas the sorcerer, a child of the devil (Acts 13:3-10). Jesus said that the one who would betray him is a devil, someone who slanders or falsely accused him, turning him over to those who desired his life (John 6:70-71; cp. John 13:2). He also claimed that the religious leaders of his day, who refused to receive him were children of the devil (John 8:44). Moreover, Jesus said that all those who claim to be his followers are not necessarily so. Though they dwell among his people claiming to be his, they are really the children of the devil. They bring slander and accusation upon Christ and his Body, the Church (Matthew 13:24-25, 37-39; cp. Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 2Peter 2:1-2).
In John 8:44; Jesus says that his accusers were children of the devil. Notice that Jesus says that the devil lusts! What does he lust after? The text says he desire to murder, but why do folks want to murder others? Isn’t murder committed over jealousy, hatred, envy, fear, greed, anger and the like, vis-à-vis works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21)? Moreover, Jesus says that the devil is also a liar from the beginning (John 8:44)! Didn’t Adam lie to his wife, saying touching the tree would result in death (Genesis 3:3; cp. 2:17), if not, why didn’t he correct his wife’s error, because he was there with her (Genesis 3:6)? Paul claims that the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) war against (Galatians 5:17) the works of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Doesn’t such a statement reflect the symbolism of Revelation 12:7-10 and the reality of Luke 10:1, 17-18)? Without any proof that the devil, satan or the serpent represent evil spiritual identities, how can they be anything other than evil, wicked men just as we find them referred to as such in the four Gospel narratives?
All of creation was affected by Adam’s sin. Death entered our race because of Adam’s sin of rebellion (Romans 5:12). Adam, the original satan, is responsible for it all, but he hid his crime (Job 31:33; cp. Genesis 3:12), suggesting in his reply that God was ultimately to blame for giving him the woman, whom he also blamed for his predicament. The slanderer, vis-à-vis the devil, veils his sin by accusing everyone else and excusing himself! But isn’t it wonderful that God never passes the buck. He accepted the blame for man’s rebellion, when Adam accused him, and in the fullness of time Jesus came and died—taking the blame for all the things done by the slanderer, vis-à-vis the Serpent, the Devil, called Satan.
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[1] This study represents a major redo of my original study: The Devil, Called Satan, Unveiled! I use some of what I said in the original, but my argument comes from a different direction to prove my conclusion, date: December, 2024.
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30 responses to “Is Satan the Devil?”
Ed this is a nice theory with one problem:
Genesis 5:5 (KJV 1900)
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Matthew 4:1–11 (KJV 1900)
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
If Adam is dead, how can he possibly talk to Jesus several thousand years later?
Hi Avery. Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment.
I agree that my understanding is not without its problems. However, I would rather believe in a disembodied human spirit than in a spiritual rebellion occurring in heaven about which the Bible says nothing. What are the alternatives? We have God creating and evil spiritual being, which I reject outright. We have a spirit being that rebelled before Adam and then tried to destroy humanity at the very beginning and continues to this day. The problem with this theory is (as much as I can tell) we give the spirit being, Satan, godlike powers of omnipresence, reading thoughts etc., superior knowledge and power second only to God. First of all, I find it suspicious that the Scriptures mention nothing of this rebellion. Secondly, I find it suspicious that God would permit such a being to hurt and destroy mankind (and why—what’s the purpose in doing so?). Would a good parent expose his or her child to and evil, powerful being—human or otherwise? If I cannot imagine a **good** parent doing such a thing, isn’t it even more unlikely that a **good** God would do such a thing?
Another alternative would be God created this being that later rebelled, but God had no control over the being’s evil desires. This would presuppose that God is not Almighty. There would be powers out of his control. He may, indeed, be more powerful and defeat the evil in the end, but meanwhile, the evil is out of control until the end. I reject this position too. These things simply do not sound like the God of Scriptures. While it is true that traditionally Christians have believed in a Satanic rebellion of angelic spirits, I do not find such an idea expressed in the Bible.
I am left with Adam is responsible for his own sin. While considering such an idea, it is simple enough to understand that he could infect the entire human race without being omnipresent. Our lives are derived from his, and he simply passes on the evil with the good as we are born. Admittedly, I do not have it worked out to my satisfaction how Adam could live as a disembodied human spirit for thousands of years, but I am more ready to believe this (which I cannot understand completely) than I am of the alternatives above, because such alternatives reflect negatively upon God. I know God is good, and he is omnipotent and abundant in mercy and gentleness. This is not reflected in the doctrines that support a Satanic, evil angel/spirit.
If you have something better in mind, or if you can show that I’ve overlooked something in the alternatives above that would not reflect negatively upon God, I am open to read such an understanding, but I’ve got to tell you I cannot imagine what I overlooked. Nevertheless, I have been surprised before. :-)
Ed,
You have really painted yourself in a corner here, and for some reason it seems like Satan, and maybe evil itself has you questioning Gods goodness, his power, and for some reason it seems like even his plan for salvation.
Here is what you have said:
1) Satan is Adam who somehow became a disembodied spirit (to which there is absolutely no biblical evidence to support), and he “passes on the evil with the good as we are born.” and everything else reflects negatively upon God.
The idea that Adam is Satan is compelling when you first think about it; but it doesn’t fit for many reasons, some of them are:
1) Adam is dead.
2) There is no biblical evidence to show he is somehow in the spirit.
3) We know the dead are asleep, not in heaven. (John 11:11)
4) It seems like three separate entities are in the garden when the fall happens. (Ge 3)
5) God cursed three people after the fall not two; the serpent, the woman and the man.
6) There are no biblical references that even hint to the fact that the first man is Satan.
7) We cannot break scripture when making interpretations (John 10:35), which this theory clearly does.
Though I have read and questioned who Lucifer is, I still dont think Adam is Satan, nor do I think Lucifer is Satan. But is it possible that Lucifer, which simply means “light bearer”, of Isaiah 14:12 is speaking of Adam? maybe, but I’m not going to get into that.
Then you say there is no biblical evidence to support a spiritual rebellion in heaven, but I don’t know how much more evidence of a rebellion you need than this:
Revelation 12:7–9 (KJV 1900)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Now, maybe you are looking for a rebellion at the time of Adam or before, to which you are right there is no evidence of. But the things we are not told, we are simply not supposed to know. Although Jesus says that eventually all things will be made known to us (Luke 8:17); and I’m sure it will make sense once we do.
Isaiah 55:9 (KJV 1900)
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts.
Then you said: “Another alternative would be God created this being that later rebelled, but God had no control over the being’s evil desires. This would presuppose that God is not Almighty.”
I have to ask you an obvious question, do we have free will? Do angels have free will? Does our free will reflect negatively on the power of God as you have said? Or does it simply reflect negatively on the person who sins?
I would say the war in heaven from Rev 12 is evidence to support the argument that yes, angels do indeed have free will. Now how would a being that has free will (which is a gift from God), that decides on its own to be evil, reflect negatively on God? And if God allowed that being to rule the world for a time and use this being to bring salvation to man, how does that make God a bad parent? Especially when WE sinned to begin with, WE fell, WE disobeyed God. He created perfection; paradise, and WE changed it, not him. I agree that Adam is responsible for his sin, and since we are responsible; here we are.
We know that:
Daniel 4:25 (KJV 1900)
…the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
and we know that it was given to Satan for a time:
Luke 4:5–6 (KJV 1900)
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
From this we can assume that God gave the world to satan; but why?
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?
Or thy work, He hath no hands?
and again:
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts.
so then what do we do?
Proverbs 3:4–8 (KJV 1900)
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; And lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: Fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
We have to trust God, for he has promised to save us, and I for one believe Him. :)
For with God nothing shall be impossible.(Luke 1:37)
So then why are we here? Why did God put the tree in the Garden anyway? was he tempting us? for he must have know that we would have sinned, right?
This is how I see it; it is all about obedience to God (Rom 6:16). Disobedience brings bad things, obedience brings prosperity. And everything that is happening right now is our own fault because we disobeyed God; i.e. you can do it the easy way or the hard way we (Adam) chose the hard way. This is why we are here:
Isaiah 54:7–8 (KJV 1900)
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; But with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; But with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, Saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
and to test our faith.
1 Peter 1:3–9 (KJV 1900)
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
So then, why was the tree in the garden? did God tempt them to eat the apple? God does not tempt (James 1:13) so I say absolutely not, it was about choice, and it actually shows how much God loves and respects us. Let me explain.
God gave man FREE WILL because he WANTS us to love him and to CHOOSE to do the right thing, but he does not make us love him nor does he make us do the right thing. God literally gave the whole world to Adam and Eve (Ge 1:26) (talk about love, trust, respect) and then he allowed them to choose between obeying and disobeying Him. This is not tempting, this is free will. The tree is symbolic of choice; just think for a minute if God did not put the tree in the garden and did not give them choice, would we really have free will? I say no. Would God really respect us? I say no. Would he really love us? I say no. He let us make our own mistakes; even though he told us, actually commanded us not to do it. The extent that God loves, trust, respects us is amazing and it is embodied in the story of Adam and Eve; if you can see it.
So before the world was created God had a plan, his plan was to create a family; God calls us sons and daughters (2 Cor 6:18), Jesus calls us friend, not servant, (John 15:15) but in order for him to give us this amazing gift, he has to be able to trust us completely; which is why our faith must be tried because it is more precious than gold.
God cannot spend eternity with the wicked (Psalm 5:4), so he made a rule that those that disobey his law will sin, and the penalty for sin is death (Rom 6:23). And although he has done everything he can (John 3:16) to save as many that are willing to be saved, those unwilling to obey God and to repent cannot spend eternity with him.
Ezekiel 18:25–27 (KJV 1900)
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
But God does not enjoy this:
Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV 1900)
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
So did God have created a being after the fall to be evil and torment us? I don’t think so; and I know he will protect those that trust in him. But could he have? Maybe:
Isaiah 54:16 (KJV 1900)
16 Behold, I have created the smith
That bloweth the coals in the fire,
And that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;
And I have created the waster to destroy.
Isaiah 13:5 (KJV 1900)
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven,
Even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation,
To destroy the whole land.
And why did he create evil?
(Isaiah 45:6-13)
I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Why? once again:
(Isaiah 45:9)
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?
Or thy work, He hath no hands?
and once more:
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts.
So… “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13) (KJV 1900)
With some things we just have to trust in God; and know that He knows what is right and is doing the right thing for us. But I appreciate what you have said, it seem like you have put a lot of thought into this.
Peace,
Avery
Hi Avery, thank you for taking an interest in our little discussion by returning to reply. I hope it serves to help both of us in gaining a little more understanding of the Scriptures. :-)
Well, I know it is apparent that one of us is misunderstanding the other. I don’t think Satan, evil or anyone else has me questioning God’s goodness or power, and I really don’t see how the outcome of whether Adam is Satan or not serves to question God’s plan of salvation, which plan is in Jesus. What I questioned was how the present doctrine of Satan reflects the goodness of God or how an alternative (held by some) allows God to be Almighty. I thought I was making it clear how such doctrines could not be true, because they deny the goodness and power of God. Either you misunderstood me, or I explained myself very poorly.
Well, that is not exactly what I said. Perhaps that is what you understood me to say, but again, either I explained myself very poorly, or you have misunderstood me. I did claim Adam was a disembodied spirit (and I’ll explain why presently). I also said that I have no real proof of this, but I didn’t claim there was absolutely no Scriptural support for the idea. I also claimed Adam passed on the evil with the good to all mankind. The truth of this idea is evident in modern society. The children of alcoholics have a greater tendency to abuse alcohol than their peers whose parents are not alcoholics. There is evidence of passing on genius, and poor health etc. Scripture itself says that the Lord visits the sins of the father unto the third and fourth generations.
What reflects negatively upon God are the false doctrines about Satan that deny God’s goodness and power. But concerning the idea of a disembodied spirit, Paul speaks in 2Corinthians 5 of the dissolving of our present bodies, but he yearned not to be found naked but to be clothed upon with his heavenly body. This seems to point to the condition of Adam and Eve before their sin. They were naked and unashamed. Later when they sinned they tried to cover up, but the Lord asked “who told you that you were naked?” (Genesis 3:11). This doesn’t seem to point to nudity but to the idea that Adam and Eve, prior to their rebellion, were spirits without bodies—whether heavenly or earthly. Later God clothed them, probably by slaying an animal (Genesis 3:21).
Adam is dead. We agree on this point. What we don’t agree on is whether or not he lived as a disembodied “spirit” until about the time of Christ. If Adam is Satan (and the Scriptures have Satan tempting Jesus) then there is biblical evidence for Adam somehow “living” without a material body at least until the time of Christ. I agree that the dead slept, but there seems to be evidence later in Scripture that the resurrection has begun and continues to this day.
Concerning the “three” entities in Genesis 3, Job claims that Adam hid his sin (Job 31:33). What is hidden must be searched out. Adam was present with his wife when she sinned. Why didn’t he stop her? Paul claims that sin entered the world through one man—Adam (Romans 5:12). If one reads the Genesis 3 account it would appear that Eve tempted Adam, but not so, if Adam is Satan. It appears good ol’ Adam wanted to see what effect, if any, rebelling had upon Eve. She didn’t apparently “die” so he ate as well. I don’t see how I am breaking Scripture here. In order to “break” Scripture, there would have to be a passage which told us clearly who Satan was and that he couldn’t be Adam.
Concerning Revelation 12:7-9, why begin there? Why not begin at verse-1 to get the context? There was a sign in the heavens—a woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet and twelve stars around her head. Verse-2 speaks of her being with child, and verse-3 speaks of another sign—the dragon. These are constellations. According to several Christian authors the heavens declare the Gospel, but it has been abused by ignorant pagans. What we know as Virgo is the sign of the virgin, and speaks of the Virgin Birth. There is only one day in which the sun could appear to clothe the body of the heavenly virgin, while the moon appeared beneath her feet. If Jesus was born in 3 BCE (as I believe he was) then the only day this could have occurred in Virgo was September 11th, sometime between 6 and 8 PM in Jerusalem, as we reckon time. This would have been the time of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Satan (the sign of the dragon in the heavens) tried to kill the babe near the time of his birth through Herod but failed (Revelation 12:5).
There was war in heaven (in the heavenly signs) depicting what occurred during Jesus’ ministry. For 1260 days or 3 ½ years Jesus (Michael) and his Apostles (angels or messengers) fought the dragon (Satan, serpent, devil) and his messengers (or angels) in the persons of the chief priests and Pharisees. And the end result was the dragon was cast down, and there was no more room found for him in the heavens or heavenly signs (Revelation 12:9; compare Luke 10:18). Jesus saw Satan fall from the heavens while his disciples were busy preaching the Gospel.
The book of Revelation is a very symbolic book. We must be careful how we interpret it. Almost nothing there is literally true.
The Scriptures tell us that the secret things belong to God, but that which is revealed belongs to us (Deuteronomy 29:29). Yet, this doesn’t mean that what is revealed is clearly stated, once and for all time. No, God conceals his glory in his word, and it is the honor of men to seek it out (Proverbs 25:2). Paul spoke of the unsearchable depth and height of God’s wisdom (Revelation 11: 33), but Paul kept on reaching out to know God more and more (Philippians 3:10-13).
You misunderstood my statement. Our free will does not bring into question the power of God, as though our will was more powerful than his. I presented two creations—according to traditional Christian doctrine—the creation of angels and the creation of mankind. God chose mankind to ultimately become his children by adoption; the angels were to be ministering spirits according to Hebrews. Then I posed a question—would a good parent place his innocent child deliberately in harm’s way? Would a good parent place his child in the company of fierce beasts of the field or evil men? This has nothing to do with my free will or yours or even the free will of an angel. It has to do with what God would do as our good Parent. It is the doctrine that is wrong, because it has God doing what a good parent would not do. Why is that so difficult to see?
We agree that God rules from heaven and gives authority to whomsoever he desires; and we agree that the devil ruled the earth, but Scripture tells us that God gave rulership of the earth to Adam, no one else. There is no record in Scripture of Satan—a powerful spirit/angelic being—ever getting control of the earth. This was given to Adam alone, according to the Scriptures, but is now in the hands of Jesus. Again, you presume Adam is not Satan and believe a Scripture naming Satan defeats my understanding. It does not. If Satan is Adam, all you have done above is support my case.
I agree, but from what does God save us? You tell me I am wrong and offer several reasons why I am wrong (though your Scriptures don’t support your case), yet you don’t really say conclusively why we need a Savior.
Well, we agree that God’s desire is to build up our faith in him, but how you get from “A” to “B” above is where we differ. It is all about love, not obedience (strictly speaking). Love believes all things, trusts all things. Strictly speaking, obedience does not necessarily do that. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil represented life our way, according to law/obedience (figuring things out for ourselves—Romans 7:7; compare Genesis 3:6-7), and the Tree of Life represented receiving Jesus, just as the Gospel message is about receiving him. God hasn’t changed his mind about anything. It is still about placing our trust in him, always has.
Again, we do agree that God wants us to love him, free will is a necessary ingredient for making love possible. However, just as above, how you get from “A” to “B” is where we differ. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil is apparently the Law, because it reveals our sin, just as it was revealed to Adam and Eve when they partook of that tree. Living by the Law symbolizes rebellion, because the Law was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner (1Timothy 1:9). Jesus represents a different “Way” (John 14:6). He is our “Way” or Path in the wilderness of life (Revelation 12:6). If he is our Way, we must be placing our trust in him. We don’t **know** the way ourselves (by Law), because we have placed our trust in him. This requires a deliberate trust in God, requiring free moral agency. Living by Law does not require trust.
We agree God had a plan. He always had a plan, still has the same one. It is that we place our trust in him—love him as he does us. While it is true that God does not intend to spend eternity with the wicked, you seem to believe he is unable to save all. God loves all (John 3:16), and sent Jesus to save all (John 3:16, compare 1John 2:2 and 1Timothy 4:10). Jesus said he has done what the Father sent him to do (John 17:4; compare John 19:30)—and, as for me and my house, we will trust in what the Lord has said. :-)
Concerning the rest of what you claim and the Scriptures you use to support your understanding, it is all based upon “obedience” rather than “love”. Love does not seek its own way; it isn’t arrogant; it doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but in doing what is true. Against such things there is no law. “Obedience” as such is not a question of love, because love does not seek its own way, but the way of truth. So, in many things—at least the conclusions—we agree, but how we get to those conclusions is where we differ.
Lord bless you, Avery.
Hey Ed,
I respect a lot of what you have said and I can see how you can logically come to your conclusions, even though I might not agree with them. Personally, I think when a theory can stand up to scrutiny it gives it merit; and sometimes the putting it out there is the challenging part, which you have done. The other challenging part is actually hearing the objections that may actually lead you to a different conclusion.
You are right, I did say it was about obedience, and you made a very good point that it is all about Love; to which I agree. But still I do believe that a lot of it has to do with obedience; it seems like every time we disobey God we push ourselves away from him.
Personally I read the Bible to understand how God wants us to do things, and how He sees things; because that is what matters. Just like Cain and Abel, it does not matter how much we want God’s approval if we ignore his instructions he will reject us as he did Cain (Ge 4:5).
So to my point, from reading the Book, I think obedience goes deeper then just doing what one is told. Have you ever noticed the connection God makes between Love and Obedience? This is what I have found. As you probably know, the more it is repeated the more important it seems to be to God, therefore I put a lot of references in here. Let me know what you think.
John 14:15–18 (KJV 1900)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:21 (KJV 1900)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23–24 (KJV 1900)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
John 15:9–10 (KJV 1900)
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:12–14 (KJV 1900)
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
1 John 2:3–5 (KJV 1900)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 3:21–24 (KJV 1900)
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:1–3 (KJV 1900)
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 John 5–6 (KJV 1900)
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
And I know that God can save everyone if He chooses; but from what I have read of the Bible it just doesn’t seem like that is his plan.
May God bless,
Avery