A few days ago, I began a series of studies about a figure called Satan, who or what figure is as is understood in the Bible, while pointing out that this is not the same as how we have come to know that figure today. Thus far, we have discovered that Satan is not an archangel, as is supposed, nor is he even an angelic figure. Christian tradition supposes he is the serpent that tempted the woman in Genesis 3, but we’ve found that there simply is not enough information there to point to a sentient, evil, angelic being. Instead, the metaphorical figure seems to point to Adam, vis-à-vis it was he who adopted a plan to seduce his wife into testing the word of God at Genesis 2:17 by eating of the tree (Genesis 3:6), which the Lord warned Adam not to eat. At this point in our study of this figure, since the Bible doesn’t describe an evil spiritual being called Satan or the serpent of Eden, does it describe a spirit being, whom we have come to believe to be Satan, but is really called the Devil?[1]
The Apocalypse mentions there coming to be war in heaven (Revelation 12:7), whereby the Dragon and his messengers fought Michael and his messengers. The Dragon lost the battle and was cast out of heaven (verse-8), and at that time he is identified as “that old serpent,” who is called the Devil and Satan, very same who deceives the world (verse-9). At this point the text announces the coming of “salvation, strength, and the Kingdom of God… for the Accuser of our brethren is cast down…” (Revelation 12:10).
Many would consider this scripture to be proof of the existence of an evil sentient spiritual being very much like the traditional figure we’ve come to know as Satan, the Devil. However, we should keep in mind that it is probably unwise to derive a literal interpretation from the most symbolic book in our Bible. If this is logical and true, what may we say of Revelation 12:7-10?
In chapter 10 of Luke’s Gospel narrative, Jesus sends out the Seventy disciples to preach to those places and cities he would visit on his way to Jerusalem from Galilee (Luke 10:1). Upon their return to him, they rejoice in finding that even the demons were subject to them through Jesus’s name (Luke 10:17). How Jesus replied is significant. He said: “I beheld Satan, as lightening, fall from heaven!” (Luke 10:18). Scholars conclude that this points to an original rebellion in heaven prior to the creation of mankind, but such an interpretation is pure supposition. Not an ounce of proof is submitted by anyone to show this is a valid understanding. If, however, we allow the sending out of the Seventy to be what is symbolized in the Apocalypse (Revelation 12:7-10), we are able to conclude what Jesus and his disciples were doing in the spirit. The preaching was physical, but the effect is spiritual. If this is so, then the terms, satan, serpent and devil point to physical figures, not spiritual entities. But, is this logical and true?
Scripture often connects certain men with the devil or the ‘accuser’ of God’s people. Paul called Elymas the sorcerer, a child of the devil (Acts 13:3-10). Jesus said that the one who would betray him is a devil, someone who slanders or falsely accused him, turning him over to those who desired his life (John 6:70-71; cp. John 13:2). He also claimed that the religious leaders of his day, who refused to receive him were children of the devil (John 8:44). Moreover, Jesus said that all those who claim to be his followers are not necessarily so. Though they dwell among his people claiming to be his, they are really the children of the devil. They bring slander and accusation upon Christ and his Body, the Church (Matthew 13:24-25, 37-39; cp. Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 2Peter 2:1-2).
In John 8:44; Jesus says that his accusers were children of the devil. Notice that Jesus says that the devil lusts! What does he lust after? The text says he desire to murder, but why do folks want to murder others? Isn’t murder committed over jealousy, hatred, envy, fear, greed, anger and the like, vis-à-vis works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21)? Moreover, Jesus says that the devil is also a liar from the beginning (John 8:44)! Didn’t Adam lie to his wife, saying touching the tree would result in death (Genesis 3:3; cp. 2:17), if not, why didn’t he correct his wife’s error, because he was there with her (Genesis 3:6)? Paul claims that the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) war against (Galatians 5:17) the works of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Doesn’t such a statement reflect the symbolism of Revelation 12:7-10 and the reality of Luke 10:1, 17-18)? Without any proof that the devil, satan or the serpent represent evil spiritual identities, how can they be anything other than evil, wicked men just as we find them referred to as such in the four Gospel narratives?
All of creation was affected by Adam’s sin. Death entered our race because of Adam’s sin of rebellion (Romans 5:12). Adam, the original satan, is responsible for it all, but he hid his crime (Job 31:33; cp. Genesis 3:12), suggesting in his reply that God was ultimately to blame for giving him the woman, whom he also blamed for his predicament. The slanderer, vis-à-vis the devil, veils his sin by accusing everyone else and excusing himself! But isn’t it wonderful that God never passes the buck. He accepted the blame for man’s rebellion, when Adam accused him, and in the fullness of time Jesus came and died—taking the blame for all the things done by the slanderer, vis-à-vis the Serpent, the Devil, called Satan.
______________________________________________________
[1] This study represents a major redo of my original study: The Devil, Called Satan, Unveiled! I use some of what I said in the original, but my argument comes from a different direction to prove my conclusion, date: December, 2024.
Smoodock's Blog 
30 responses to “Is Satan the Devil?”
Greetings Avery, and thank you for the tone of your response. Some of those who reply to my posts simply wish to put me in my place or correct my understanding of the Scriptures, but you admitted that there is a logic to my understanding, even if you cannot agree with my conclusion. Thank you for that.
We do agree on many things as I said in my previous reply; it is how we get from “A” to “B” that we find we do not agree. In the Scriptures you quoted above the theme of love runs through them all. Jesus is speaking of two specific commandments: loving God and loving our brethren (neighbor). Loving God is further defined as **believing** Jesus who brought the message of God to man. If we trust Jesus, we love God who sent him. We know we love God if we love our neighbor, because we cannot love God if we don’t love our neighbor for whom Christ has shown his love by dying for him.
Did you ever try to love someone, especially a woman, by following the points (commands) of a book? It can’t be done. You live with the desire to be near her; you trust her and want to please her at all times. You don’t really need anyone to tell you how, as long as you simply put her before yourself, trusting her and living to please her rather than yourself. That is love. Similarly, this is how we show we love God. Jesus tells us we must trust him before God will even draw us to Jesus. If we come to God with a full cup (already believing we know him) he is unable to give us anything that would draw us to his Son. If we don’t believe Jesus (what he says) then we shall be unable to love the brethren, which we are commanded to do in order to be called his followers. The commandments of which Jesus speaks is trusting (believing) Jesus and loving our neighbor (especially the brethren). Loving God with all our hearts, minds, strength, and souls and loving our neighbors as ourselves, is the foundation of the entire Law in the OT. If we do that we shall not be disobedient against any of God’s commands.
That is the key, if we try to obey, we do it in our own strength, and we shall fail. If we simply love God with our entire being, we can look back on our lives and be surprised to have obeyed him in all he had for us to do. The Scriptures tell us that Abraham believed God and this was counted to him as righteousness. In fact, God testified that Abraham was obedient to all his laws, statutes and judgments. How, when the Law was not, as yet, given? Because he **believed** God and went about expressing his faith as best he could. On the other hand, when Moses struck the rock twice (this was after the Law was given) it is said of him that he didn’t believe God. Trying to obey God and failing results in disbelief. But trying to live out one’s faith in God, but expressing it badly, results in God covering our mistakes and testifying that we have obeyed him in all things.
Concerning your statement that you know that God can save everyone if He chooses; but from what you have read of the Bible it just doesn’t seem like that is his plan, well, you haven’t quoted anything that would support you claim. I have quoted three Scriptures in my previous reply to you: showing God loves the world, has saved all mankind and Jesus paid the price for all. If the price is paid, God has no further demands as far as payment is concerned. He does demand we claim the payment provided (Jesus’ death), but he makes no other demand. People will be punished according to their works, but their eternal life is secure in Jesus’ payment for all. The fact is that everyone, all mankind, yearn for the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19-23). They just don’t realize it.
Lord bless you.
Eddie
Eddie,
No problem, personally I enjoy discussing this with people, it challenges my beliefs which I think is a good thing; it keeps me on my toes and helps me to not just accept things just because I think I know them. Which you have certainly done! As far as our beliefs are concerned, the really important ones we agree on, and I am sure I will meet you someday once this is all over. So in my opinion there is no point to try and put anyone in their place, it just hurts peoples feelings and gets you nowhere. I think there is a way to have a disagreement that is a discussion instead of a fight.
That being said, you are right, I didn’t give any examples to support why I said that. Here are yours.
1 John 2:1–2 (KJV 1900)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:8–10 (KJV 1900)
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Now I can definitely see where you get the idea from but it just doesn’t make sense to me, there are also apparent contradictions; but before I get to them I have to bring up free will again. What if someone does not want to be saved? It seems like God wants all to be saved but we have to choose it, and we have to want it.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
God talks about judgement, about punishment, about seprating his poeple from the other people basically throughout the entire bible. God makes the connection in Matthew 25 that punishment shall be eternal, and that those not of God (the tares) will be burned. You can make the connection this is their soul being burned, because the righteous save their soul. In Eze He makes a distinction between souls that live and souls that don’t live.
Ezekiel 13:19 (KJV 1900)
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
Why does he call them “My people” if we are all his people?:
Ezekiel 13:22–23 (KJV 1900)
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Now here is what Jesus says:
Matthew 13:24–30 (KJV 1900)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The tares are burned the wheat is gather to Jesus. Why does God make this distinction if we are all saved?
What does this passage means to you:
Matthew 25:31–33,41-46 (KJV 1900)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
It says those things that are an abomination to the lord will not go unpunished, the above says the punishment will be everlasting
Proverbs 16:4–5 (KJV 1900)
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD:
Though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
God is a God of Judgement,
Deuteronomy 32:4–5 (KJV 1900)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: For all his ways are judgment:
A God of truth and without iniquity, Just and right is he.
Again, why does He talk about saving our souls if they are saved?
Proverbs 16:17 (KJV 1900)
17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil:
He that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
Why all the talk about the elect, the chosen, why are Gods laws so strict? If you disobey parents you get put to death; I think this is a shadow of things to come symbolic of disobeying God.
Deuteronomy 21:18–21 (KJV 1900)
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Murders etc are killed in God’s law, not saved:
Leviticus 24:16–22 (KJV 1900)
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
What then does it mean to be damned, if it is not everlasting punishment?
2 Thessalonians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It says the crown of life is promised to those that love him, not to all.
James 1:12 (KJV 1900)
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
If God does not make an end to the evil ones why would he say this:
Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV 1900)
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
The wicked shall surely die unless they turn from their sin:
Ezekiel 33:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
There are so many examples it seems like the whole bible is about separating his people (the wheat) from those who are not of God (the tares); who are reserved for everlasting punishment. In 1 John it says Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world and I agree because anyone who wants can be saved but they have to want it; God gives us all many chances; it doesn’t say that all will accept the offer of eternal life and it doesn’t say that God will make us accept it.
In 1 Timothy it says “specially those that believe.” Why is that there if all will be saved? It modifies the sentence and the though, if all would be saved unconditionally I don’t believe that last part would be there and I can’t read Greek so I don’t know how to interpret it in the original language.
Besides all of the scriptures above and the ones I did not include, I just don’t think it is right that some people who are truly evil would get the promise of everlasting life. Some people have done terrible things in this life and have affected the lives of people for generations with the evil they have done; and I think they should be punished for it. If they ask for forgiveness that is one thing; I think that they should be forgiven if they really mean it, but if they do not ask for forgiveness nor want forgiveness why do they deserve to be forgiven? I don’t see that as being right, or just; as we know God is. And if we are made in the image and likeness of God I think He might see it the same way; mainly because I see evidence of it in scriptures.
Maybe you don’t agree with all of the scriptures I have cited, but I want to know; do you think that someone who has done a truly terrible thing, that has ruined someones life and many people around that person, deserves to be forgiven if they do not want to be nor ask to be forgiven?
May God bless,
Avery
Greetings Avery, and thank you again for responding. One of the most difficult things for me to do, and still is very difficult, is to read God’s word without any preconceptions—i.e. reading it as it is, without bringing into it what men have taught me about it. This is not to say that all men are wrong, but I am saying all men cannot be correct. Many really great commentaries will disagree on many things. So approaching God’s word in such a way that I am letting him tell me what he is saying is very difficult, and often times I have to leave it alone and come back to it again later, permitting God to work in my thoughts for awhile.
Specifically, Ezekiel 13:19-23 is speaking to God’s people, Israel; and among Israel were false prophetesses (Ezekiel 13:17) who used their charms to deceive God’s people, becoming popular while they, in effect, slew God’s people through their evil teaching. This has a parallel today in Christianity. Many people grow rich upon the name of Christ, caring nothing for God’s people, enticing some to follow their ways. This agrees with the Lord’s prophecy of the wheat and the tares, which you mention above in Matthew 13. There is, as you say, a division between the people of God and those who are not—between the clean and the unclean.
The problem with holding a definitive outlook like this, as I see it, is that God continually forgave his people, returning to them and saving them. What we have is a cycle of blessing, rebellion, punishment, repentance, forgiveness and restoration. Now this is not to say that this was done in the individual lives of those who rebelled, but it was done for the nation as a whole. One has to consider, though, if the people lived long enough, would they have repented as the nation did? Would they have been forgiven and restored as the nation was? We don’t know, because the Scripture doesn’t say, but it is a consideration. One thing we do know in this regard is that Jesus once claimed that, if the works that were done in the cities where he preached were also done in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have continued to Jesus’ day. This seems to say that even the most wicked people would repent, if God intervened in their lives—just a thought.
Now we come to the Scriptures that have been interpreted by men so often and their understanding so widespread that it is difficult to read the Scripture in point without thinking of them in the way that our well beloved interpreters have taught. You ask what do I think of Matthew 25:31-46. Well, It is certainly different from the parable of the Ten Virgins who waited for the Bridegroom. It is also different from the parable of the Talents which each received of the Lord in order to work for him and show an increase. These people don’t seem to have known the Lord at all until they see him at the judgment (Matthew 25:38-39). They were judged for their compassion upon others. Moreover, they were one part of two of **all** nations (Matthew 25:32-33). These don’t seem to be part of the “elect” but are part of the masses who never knew Christ or simply never received him as Lord. They simply treated folks decently. Now, I don’t mean to imply that they are saved because they treated folks decently. Jesus saved one and all. Their sins are not remembered, simply because they did things out of the goodness of their hearts.
The goats, on the other hand, are a different story. These are those who were responsible for the majority of all evil upon the earth. These are the leaders of the nations (cp. Ezekiel 34:17-22), from the local magistrate to the prince of the kingdom. They have not permitted the people to feed upon what was good but only what they mangled and half destroyed. They have not permitted the people to drink from the deep waters of the Spirit, but only what they had dirtied and made unclean. They have abused the people and hid the truth.
Now, according to the clear teaching of Matthew 25:31-46 many from the nations who did not know or receive Jesus as Savior shall be saved, but what of those the Lord judges on his left—the goats, those largely responsible for the evil in the world? They will be judged and punished. We agree on this. You used several Scriptures above to show that many would be punished and judged. This is true, but what does this mean and how long will the punishment last? This is the question. Matthew 25:41, 46 say that the “goats” will be punished in everlasting fire, but what does this mean? While the goats have been interpreted as the wicked, the fire and “everlasting” have been taken literally! Does this do justice to God’s word? By what authority do we take one word in a paragraph symbolically, but others in the same paragraph literally?
Elsewhere, we find that fire is a symbol of trials or persecution in the lives of the elect. Fire is meant to burn off the dross or get rid of the curse (cp. Hebrews 6:8). Yet, Matthew 25 speaks of an “eternal” or an “everlasting” fire. How could this be temporary trials meant to correct and purify? Well, Jude 1:7 speaks of and “eternal” fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Is it still burning or is it the effect of the fire that is meant to be “everlasting”? If we let Scripture do the interpreting for us, we can be free from a lot of bad teaching, and when Scripture seems to contradict, then we need to step aside and let God give us the meaning in due time.
Avery, I can see how Matthew 25:31-46 could mean that the wicked will be punished with everlasting results—for the good, that is, they will be saved. But how can you show that Jesus didn’t pay the entire debt for all people (1John 2:2) and didn’t save **all** men (1Timothy 4:10)? At the end of the day, **all** Scripture must agree. I can make these Scriptures agree and do it logically by comparing Scripture with Scripture without abusing the meaning of any passage. Can you do the same to support your case?
Finally, the Scripture concludes that the soul that sins will die, and those who don’t dwell in life (i.e. have placed their trust in Jesus) dwell in death (spiritually speaking). I have heard men interpret eternal punishment to mean eternal death (i.e. blackness of darkness—no light, no thoughts—dead), or a kind of **life** without God—eternally separated from him, or a kind of life that is not burned up in an eternal hellfire. Perhaps there are other interpretations but these are what I have heard. Yet, the Scripture claims that Jesus must reign until all enemies are put under his feet, and the final enemy that will be destroyed is death itself (1Corinthians 15:25-26). I don’t care what one wishes to call “eternal” death. The Scripture claims Jesus will destroy death. On can do that only by giving life. At least this is how I see it, but how do you see it?
Lord bless you,
Eddie
Well that is the best argument that I have heard: “The Scripture claims Jesus will destroy death. One can do that only by giving life.” I don’t agree that it is the only way, but it is still a good argument.
I also agree with you when you said:
“the “goats” will be punished in everlasting fire, but what does this mean? While the goats have been interpreted as the wicked, the fire and “everlasting” have been taken literally! Does this do justice to God’s word? By what authority do we take one word in a paragraph symbolically, but others in the same paragraph literally?” I think you hit the nail on the head with this.
OK so you never answered my question, and I still would like to know that answer…
Eddie I think what it comes down to is this— in your mind God cannot be a good God and a good parent if He judges people and gives them everlasting death. It seems like you are tying to make the scriptures back up this idea; since God is good he has to save us all; but I would ask is that a presupposition on our part or is it how God sees it?
I think you have made a lot of good points; I can “see” what you are saying and it makes sense to me why you would say it. But I think that God can still be “good” in our eyes even if he does something that might appear to be “evil” to some people; I believe that ultimately it is not. But I think this is the core of what we are discussing.
As you have said, I don’t believe that people literally burn in the fire forever, but I do believe that they are cut off; to say otherwise is to not accept what the scripture says. I think the people that get cut off force God to do this; because of their free will they refuse to accept Him not matter what He does. I think they will do this no matter how long they live.
Some interesting passages, this is from the book of Enoch,
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: ‘These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.’ I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: ‘This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?’ 7 And he answered me saying: ‘This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.’ 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why is one separated from the other?’ 9 And he answered me and said unto me: ‘These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever.
1 Samuel 2:9 (KJV 1900)
9 He will keep the feet of his saints, And the wicked shall be silent in darkness;
For by strength shall no man prevail.
The wicked shall be silent in darkness, or cut off from God.
“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.” (John 10:27)
There is another passage that I cannot find that talks about how God has a way of calling his sheep and reserving the wicked for judgement, but I can’t find it.
But the best is this, Moses prophesied that if you do not believe in Jesus, you will be destroyed. Not punished, or tried, or put in fire, but destroyed; cut off.
Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
“Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
shall be destroyed from among the people; in the Hebrew text it is, “I will require it of him”; the Hebrew word, there used, by having different points, may be rendered “of him”, or “from his people”, which seems to be the reason of this difference: and requiring often intends punishment, or a cutting off; or as Aben Ezra explains it here, “death by the hand of heaven;”
that is, immediate destruction from God; and so Maimonides says (k), he that transgresses the words of that prophet, is guilty of death by the hand of heaven; and which was remarkably fulfilled in the Jewish nation, for their rejection of Jesus as the true Messiah, and that prophet.”
I don’t know if you have a loved one that does not believe in God, which is why you view things this way but all I am going to say is to be careful with this belief. I say that because if what you believe is different from what actually happens, it could challenge your faith in God and I wouldn’t want to see that happen.
So I put it to you again, think about what you would do: someone killed or raped one of your children, they do not ask to be forgiven nor want to be forgiven, they show no remorse and are not sorry for what they have done. You try to forgive them but they do not accept it and just go and kill another one of your children every time you forgive them just despite you. Every time you see them they spit in your face and curse at you. Would you give them everything you have, let them live in your house forever, clothe them, feed them, and love them? when they do nothing but hurt you and your children? What would the rest of your family think of you let this person stay in your house?
May God bless you,
Avery
Greetings Avery, I can’t remember when a discussion on my blog went on this long and where I disagreed with my poster that the discussion didn’t descend into name calling etc. I do appreciate your demeanor.
If the punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:29), how is death destroyed if it reigns over a single person? We may call “death” separation from God or whatever one can imagine, but at the end of the day, the Scripture says that death will be destroyed. How is death destroyed, if people are still dead? You disagree with me, but don’t follow up with how you would show people are dead, but death is destroyed.
Concerning the question I hadn’t answered, the only direct question I remember you asking me was what I thought of Matthew 25:31-46. I thought I did reply to this, showing who I thought the goats were, the sheep and the resulting punishment of the goats in “everlasting” (as everlasting as the fire that destroyed Sodom) “fire” like the fiery trials we go through that burns off the dross or uncleanness within us. If you desire a greater response, please tell me what you have in mind.
Concerning God being good and my having presuppositions, I trust that I do not bring any presuppositions into my conclusions about God and what he has said in his word. I used to believe as most Christians, but I couldn’t reconcile all the Scriptures concerning a certain idea as that same idea was defined in traditional Christianity (usually post Constantine). How does one reconcile God being the Savior of all mankind and punishing the wicked in everlasting fire? Obviously, a modification of one Scripture or the other (or both) is in order. Both cannot be literally true, because they contradict on the literal plane. And, by the way, I did ask you to reply to this in my previous post and you haven’t yet. :-)
I agree God is good no matter what he does. The problem is not in his doing, but in him setting an example for us to do likewise. God is not evil, cannot be evil, doesn’t do evil. We are his creation, and he may do what he desires with what is his, just as you and I can treat our car well or abuse it without our righteousness coming into question. Nevertheless, if we are to “image” God (Genesis 1:27; cp. Hebrews 1:3 and 1Peter 2:21), then he **must** behave a certain way in order for us to see how we need to behave ourselves. He cannot merely give us commands, while he acts contrary to how he has defined love (1Corinthians 13:1-8; cp. John 15:13). When, if ever, would love fail? If God is love (and he must embody the principles of 1Corinthians 13:1-8 if we are to understand what that means), can he ever fail?
Concerning the people God cuts off and saying they **force** him to do this, how can anyone “force” God to act against his own desires (1Timothy 2:4). Now (temporary) punishment is one thing, but if what God desires is for good (and he always desires to do good) how can anyone “force” him to do something he doesn’t consider “good” for us in the first place? Either God loves the (whole) world (John 3:16) or he doesn’t. Either Jesus died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6) or he didn’t. Either his death is the payment of all mankind’s sin (1John 2:2) or it isn’t. And, if it is payment for all, why would God act like it is not by punishment (some) forever? If I played with matches against the command of my father and burned our house down, but was saved from the fire by my father risking his life to save me, punishment might very well be in order, but why would he take my life which he saved? That doesn’t make sense!
Concerning the book of Enoch, I take it like I take a lot of commentaries—with a grain of salt. I don’t consider either inspired in the same manner as Scripture is. The parts about the spirits living after death contradict the Bible. The Scriptures that followed I have replied to above. The Scripture you may have been looking for is:
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (2 Peter 2:9 KJV)
Yet, all this does is to say the unjust will be punished. Upon this we both agree. It is the length of this punishment where we disagree.
Concerning what Moses said about the coming of Jesus (the Prophet) in Acts 3:22-23, this is true. Anyone not believing in Jesus will be cut off. But what does this mean? Truly, the Jewish nation was destroyed in 70 CE, showing they were “cut off” from the mercies of God. However, Paul says all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11:26), so being cut off couldn’t be forever (as we understand the term today), and if “all” Israel will be saved, why not all the gentiles, since God is not a respecter of persons? Paul also wished he could trade places with unbelieving Israel (Romans 9:3) and be accursed from Christ instead of them. This doesn’t make sense, unless truly **all** would be saved in the end, otherwise Paul shows he loves his countrymen more than God. What I see Paul doing here is to desire to be as Jesus was, being a curse for the sake of saving others. The difference is that Jesus’ life is that effective, but Paul’s could not be so, and if the trade was made, Paul’s righteousness would not save him from the grave as Jesus’ did. Yet, Paul would trade places if he could. Why, unless in the end he would also be reconciled to God?
I believe as I do, not because of a loved one fallen from grace, but, because I desire to know God—his character, his wisdom, his almightiness etc. I want to know him out of his word and through his Spirit, not from another man—though I don’t despise what men say about God. I simply take what they say, knowing they could be wrong. So, when I find I am wrong about anything, by faith is broadened, not challenged.
I don’t remember you putting this to me in a previous post. No one has ever done such a thing to me, and it would be presumptuous of me to claim I would act like God does, because he does cause the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust alike, and often keeps from punishing the wicked until the day of judgment—giving them ample opportunity to repent. So, God already does these things today, everyday. As a member of his household, I marvel at his grace and love, something I have been unable to search out for the vastness of it all, but I continue to press on to know him in the depth, the height, the breath of his Being. On the other hand, when justice prevails over a criminal who took a life, raped a child or destroyed the life of someone that was greatly loved, it isn’t all that difficult to appreciate the justice of the end of the criminal, whose life the state takes. I understand it, and can appreciate the wisdom in removing such a wicked person from our society, so that he does no harm to other innocent people. What I find so vastly above my comprehension is God forgiving it all, sending his Son to die for just such a one I would want society to remove from our presence. This does challenge my comprehension, but I press on to know him as best I can in this life through his Spirit, which he has given me.
Lord bless you, Avery,
Eddie