A few days ago, I began a series of studies about a figure called Satan, who or what figure is as is understood in the Bible, while pointing out that this is not the same as how we have come to know that figure today. Thus far, we have discovered that Satan is not an archangel, as is supposed, nor is he even an angelic figure. Christian tradition supposes he is the serpent that tempted the woman in Genesis 3, but we’ve found that there simply is not enough information there to point to a sentient, evil, angelic being. Instead, the metaphorical figure seems to point to Adam, vis-à-vis it was he who adopted a plan to seduce his wife into testing the word of God at Genesis 2:17 by eating of the tree (Genesis 3:6), which the Lord warned Adam not to eat. At this point in our study of this figure, since the Bible doesn’t describe an evil spiritual being called Satan or the serpent of Eden, does it describe a spirit being, whom we have come to believe to be Satan, but is really called the Devil?[1]
The Apocalypse mentions there coming to be war in heaven (Revelation 12:7), whereby the Dragon and his messengers fought Michael and his messengers. The Dragon lost the battle and was cast out of heaven (verse-8), and at that time he is identified as “that old serpent,” who is called the Devil and Satan, very same who deceives the world (verse-9). At this point the text announces the coming of “salvation, strength, and the Kingdom of God… for the Accuser of our brethren is cast down…” (Revelation 12:10).
Many would consider this scripture to be proof of the existence of an evil sentient spiritual being very much like the traditional figure we’ve come to know as Satan, the Devil. However, we should keep in mind that it is probably unwise to derive a literal interpretation from the most symbolic book in our Bible. If this is logical and true, what may we say of Revelation 12:7-10?
In chapter 10 of Luke’s Gospel narrative, Jesus sends out the Seventy disciples to preach to those places and cities he would visit on his way to Jerusalem from Galilee (Luke 10:1). Upon their return to him, they rejoice in finding that even the demons were subject to them through Jesus’s name (Luke 10:17). How Jesus replied is significant. He said: “I beheld Satan, as lightening, fall from heaven!” (Luke 10:18). Scholars conclude that this points to an original rebellion in heaven prior to the creation of mankind, but such an interpretation is pure supposition. Not an ounce of proof is submitted by anyone to show this is a valid understanding. If, however, we allow the sending out of the Seventy to be what is symbolized in the Apocalypse (Revelation 12:7-10), we are able to conclude what Jesus and his disciples were doing in the spirit. The preaching was physical, but the effect is spiritual. If this is so, then the terms, satan, serpent and devil point to physical figures, not spiritual entities. But, is this logical and true?
Scripture often connects certain men with the devil or the ‘accuser’ of God’s people. Paul called Elymas the sorcerer, a child of the devil (Acts 13:3-10). Jesus said that the one who would betray him is a devil, someone who slanders or falsely accused him, turning him over to those who desired his life (John 6:70-71; cp. John 13:2). He also claimed that the religious leaders of his day, who refused to receive him were children of the devil (John 8:44). Moreover, Jesus said that all those who claim to be his followers are not necessarily so. Though they dwell among his people claiming to be his, they are really the children of the devil. They bring slander and accusation upon Christ and his Body, the Church (Matthew 13:24-25, 37-39; cp. Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 2Peter 2:1-2).
In John 8:44; Jesus says that his accusers were children of the devil. Notice that Jesus says that the devil lusts! What does he lust after? The text says he desire to murder, but why do folks want to murder others? Isn’t murder committed over jealousy, hatred, envy, fear, greed, anger and the like, vis-à-vis works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21)? Moreover, Jesus says that the devil is also a liar from the beginning (John 8:44)! Didn’t Adam lie to his wife, saying touching the tree would result in death (Genesis 3:3; cp. 2:17), if not, why didn’t he correct his wife’s error, because he was there with her (Genesis 3:6)? Paul claims that the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) war against (Galatians 5:17) the works of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Doesn’t such a statement reflect the symbolism of Revelation 12:7-10 and the reality of Luke 10:1, 17-18)? Without any proof that the devil, satan or the serpent represent evil spiritual identities, how can they be anything other than evil, wicked men just as we find them referred to as such in the four Gospel narratives?
All of creation was affected by Adam’s sin. Death entered our race because of Adam’s sin of rebellion (Romans 5:12). Adam, the original satan, is responsible for it all, but he hid his crime (Job 31:33; cp. Genesis 3:12), suggesting in his reply that God was ultimately to blame for giving him the woman, whom he also blamed for his predicament. The slanderer, vis-à-vis the devil, veils his sin by accusing everyone else and excusing himself! But isn’t it wonderful that God never passes the buck. He accepted the blame for man’s rebellion, when Adam accused him, and in the fullness of time Jesus came and died—taking the blame for all the things done by the slanderer, vis-à-vis the Serpent, the Devil, called Satan.
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[1] This study represents a major redo of my original study: The Devil, Called Satan, Unveiled! I use some of what I said in the original, but my argument comes from a different direction to prove my conclusion, date: December, 2024.
Smoodock's Blog 
30 responses to “Is Satan the Devil?”
Eddie,
No problem, I find it interesting discussing religious beliefs with people; often as you have said people will refer to name calling before they actually open their ears to try to understand what the other person is saying. For some reason many of us hold onto our beliefs and fight rather than to look at what we believe to see if it is the truth; no matter how much evidence is shown to the contrary. All I am interested in is the truth. You have certainly made me question my understanding to which I am grateful; I believe that this is the outcome of a good discussion, and if one can regularly review their beliefs in this way, they will not only learn, but often be able to discover many false beliefs and/or strengthen beliefs that have sound basis in the words of the Bible as they are written.
As I said before, this is a very good argument: “How is death destroyed, if people are still dead?” And to be honest I really don’t have a good logical answer to counter that argument, outside of evidence that I have shown below.
You have said you trust that you do not bring any presuppositions into your conclusions about God, but I think we all have presuppositions in our beliefs, its trying to discover them and accept them for what they are that is the hard part.
To your question “How does one reconcile God being the Savior of all mankind and punishing the wicked in everlasting fire?”
My answer to this question is the subject that you and I seem to differ most on; free will. I believe that all men are offered the gift of eternal life, to wit Jesus is the savior of all mankind, but not all men accept it. There is ample evidence from the bible to support this, some of which I have included; many of Jesus’s parables for example. You believe that God somehow gets all men to accept it; and that is not what I read. For example if I offered you a million dollars, but you had to drive to where I live to pick it up, whose would it be if you did not say yes and come and get it?
Luke 11:9–10 (KJV 1900)
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
So Jesus is the savior of all mankind because the gift of eternal life is offered to evey man; anyone that repents will be saved.
In saying that people “force” God to do something; I probably shouldn’t have used the word forced to illustrate my point, all I was saying was simply that if they do not accept the gift God has given them they will be cut off; and God takes no pleasure in this as I have quoted from Eze 33:11 above.
Look the bottom line is that I can see where your coming from, there are passages in the bible that “leave the door open” to the possibility of all not being destroyed but when you look at the overall picture of what the entire bible is saying I believe it is quite clear that some people will be “cut off”. The connection the Bible makes between death and “cut off” is clear, and I interpret death to mean the same thing it means now; the person is gone forever. The Bible mentions how the soul will be cut off in Ge 17 below.
Really made me search for this answer so I went to the beginning of the Bible. The first thing I saw was that when Adam and Eve sinned, they were cast out of the Garden and were no longer in the presence of God; this is the state that we are still currently in.
When Cain killed Able, God drove Cain out
Genesis 4:10–15 (KJV 1900)
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth;
When all men were evil on the earth He destroyed it with a flood:
Genesis 6:5–8 (KJV 1900)
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
When the cities Sodom and Ghomorra became evil, God destroyed them too.
Genesis 18:20–33 (KJV 1900)
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Genesis 19:24–29 (KJV 1900)
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
There is a theme here of disobeying God, or sinning and being cast away from him, or being destroyed.
Then when God made a covenant with Abraham he promised to “cut off” those people who broke his covenant.
Genesis 17:10–14 (KJV 1900)
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Then Moses Prophesied that those who did not harken to Jesus would be cut off
Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
And repentance is a prerequisite for the forgiveness of sins, therefore you can conclude that you cannot be forgiven if you do not repent!
Acts 3:19 (KJV 1900)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Next we look at Gods law because it is a shadow of good things to come. Personally I would say that if all evil is cut off that would be a good thing…
Leviticus 24:16–22 (KJV 1900)
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him:
17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18–21 (KJV 1900)
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:22 (KJV 1900)
22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deuteronomy 22:22 (KJV 1900)
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
Deuteronomy 22:25–26 (KJV 1900)
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
As you can see from these examples, God’s law destroys those that sin; now through Jesus you can repent of your sins and you will be saved. The lynchpin here is that you MUST repent to be saved; does it say anything to the contrary anywhere in the bible?
Some may say, and I am sure that all of your concordances along with the NIV if that is your bible of choice, say that the law was “fulfilled” or done away with. But that is not what the Bible says nor is it what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:17–18 (KJV 1900)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luke 16:17–18 (KJV 1900)
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The book of Luke has many examples of what Jesus said pertaining to eternal life:
Luke 13:5–9 (KJV 1900)
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
But we all get ample chances to do so.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Luke 13:23–24 (KJV 1900)
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
This clearly states not all will enter the kingdom.
Luke 12:8–9 (KJV 1900)
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:4–5 (KJV 1900)
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 10:25–28 (KJV 1900)
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luke 9:62 (KJV 1900)
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 9:24–25 (KJV 1900)
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
This next passages is a good example of free will, all are called to the feast but not all accept the invitation.
Luke 14:15–24 (KJV 1900)
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV 1900)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Now as I said your argument is very good, and the best argument I have back is what is the second death then? How do we know death now? How can this second death be different in form then what we know now?
For all intents and purposes if someone dies now, they are gone forever; as far as the world we know is concerned and there is no coming back. How can people who die in the second death be gone in a different way? The bible has made a connection between “cut off” and death, how can this second death only be punishment? How can you somehow come back from the second death when the bible does not mention this? There is no symbolism in many of the passages that quote this.
Your argument is a very good logical argument but it is based in human understanding not the words of the Bible. It raises too many questions and contradictions for me. Can people be dead if God defeats death? If no one dies ever again would death not be defeated? would not the power of death be defeated if it could not longer influence anyone? All life is given the choice to live forever; not all accept that gift and God does not force them to. If God did not give us free will, we would resent him for it and we get to live with Him forever, would some not see that as a burden if they did not choose it?
No God cannot ever fail, but He will only do that which He has said He will do.
As far as the book of Enoch is concerned, it was quoted in Jude 14, so the writers of the New Testament relied on it to some extent; whether you want to accept this as inspired is up to you, but this fact cannot be refuted.
As you have said we agree on many things it is how we get from A to B, but can you refute the scriptures that I have provided to show that somehow evil people will be saved despite all of this evidence? Namely can you show that someone can be forgiven without repentance? As Spock one said “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
And thank you, this was the scripture I was looking for!
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (2 Peter 2:9 KJV)
May God Bless You,
Avery
Concerning presuppositions, I said I “trust” I have brought none to our discussion. I was brought up Roman Catholic, and I was made to question my faith and fell into the company of a cultist. After I understood that I was deceived by a man, I had to beg God to help me, because I couldn’t go to another man for assistance. So, I studied God’s word, allowing him do direct me. I had to know about salvation and who would be condemned for eternity. According to the cultist I left, I was condemned, and according to the church of my youth, my salvation was suspect. The conclusions I came to were my own—taken from no one. I **trust** I haven’t brought any preconceived notions to our discussion. What I’ve written in my blog is a result of that study and studies afterward.
Concerning Jesus as the Savior of all men and you offering me a million dollars, the two do not fit well together. For example, if I saved a man from drowning, he is saved, period. If I asked a drowning man if he wished me to save him and he said no, I couldn’t be his savior, if I let him drown. It is illogical to say Jesus is the Savior of all men, if he doesn’t save all men. The Scriptures are not meant to offer us a mysterious language that cannot be understood in our native tongue, but God has always intended for us to understand him—even if he hides things about himself within the Scriptures, they are intended to be understood once we find them. So, to say Jesus is the Savior of all men, when he doesn’t save all men is illogical and not understandable without a new meaning placed upon the words. God speaks clearly—to be understood, not mysteriously to trip us up.
Now, you can put whatever condition you wish upon your million dollars, but it is not a true gift if it is conditional. God gave us life in the beginning. He didn’t ask anyone’s permission—there was no one to ask—he simply created the heavens and the earth and all therein. No free will about that, unless you apply it to God. Certainly he has freedom of will, and it is unlimited, except for those limitations he places upon himself. But, concerning human free will, it is has always been limited. We do not have unlimited free will. For example, I could desire to be like a fish and swim and live underwater, but I’ll die if I try. I simply cannot breathe underwater like a fish. To will to be like one would be folly, and I could give a number of other examples to show that our free will is limited. We could say that Israel had “free will”, and they used their will to rebel endlessly against God, and God had them “cut off” from the land. He brought some of the Jews back to Palestine under Joshua and Zerubbabel, but their descendents were also rebellious, and they rejected Jesus and in the end were “cut off” from the land. Yet, we read in Paul’s letter to the Romans that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). The context of Paul’s remarks is that Israel had rejected Jesus. God has chosen that the cutting off and casting away of his people would be the reconciliation of the whole world (Romans 11:15). Paul continues showing that if the casting away of God’s people is blessing to the world, the receiving of his people (the Jews) will bring the resurrection from the dead (same verse—Romans 11:15). So, we see that the “cutting off” is not a **forever** matter, at least not when it comes to God saving the lost.
Certainly, we can see that the Jews (as a whole) have exercised their own free will to the point of rejecting Jesus throughout the past 20 centuries. Yet, the word of God says **all** Israel will be saved! How can this be if “free will” is unlimited and a man’s rejection of Jesus is a permanent matter? Therefore, if this Scripture (Romans 11:26) is true, then we must conclude that though a man rejects Jesus in this life, there will come a time in the resurrection that this will be forgiven and all men will be brought to the place where they can recognize their evil and cry out to God for mercy. And God will hear them.
Concerning what the Law destroys, the Law was never meant to bring us into a right relationship with God. It was meant to (a) expose our sins to us and the world—i.e. call sin a sin—evil; and (b) clean up our society from the greatest corrupting evils. Consider for a moment the limitations of law. You could live by a law and wish to have a wife, and many women might be willing to submit to your law and dwell with you as your wife. Yet, how would you know that any love you? If all you have between one another is law, where is love? Your children (presuming you are married and have children) are raised under your law (and presumably mercy), but there will come a day when they are no longer under your law. They will live totally free of you and your law. The success or failure of your labor with them will be proved through their love for you and respect for all you have done or their repudiation of it. In other words, if they love you when there is no law between you and them, then you have been successful as a parent. God is no different. His success as God—a loving and merciful Father God—is proved by our love for him in the end. God is not a failure.
Concerning our repentance, let me ask you a question. Do you know how to play a musical instrument? I don’t know how, but I’ve always wished I could, but I never really labored to obtain that ability. If you do know how to play a musical instrument, are you **gifted** like those with a passion to make the use thereof the theme of their lives? I assume not, but you can tell me if I am wrong in your reply. Most of us are not really gifted in music. We can appreciate it by listening, but the actual practice escapes most of us. Repentance is like playing a musical instrument. It is a gift from God (Acts 5:31; 11:18). We are all called to repent (Acts 26:20) and to do the works of repentance, but all are not given the gift (Hebrews 12:17). It is not in mankind to repent from evil; it simply is not a part of our fleshy makeup. Oh, we can try and with limited success like Saul repented when he saw how righteous David was in preserving his life, when in fact Saul sought to kill David. Saul was repentant for a time, but soon nourished his hatred of David and sought to kill him once more. Godly repentance is a gift from God and we must nourish it when we have it or it will be taken away. It is God’s own goodness that leads us to repent, and therefore is nourished by our own goodness (nourished in the Spirit of God) toward all men this exemplifies our own repentance. In other words we must act like God toward all men in order to bear the fruit of repentance.
Concerning the “lake of fire” or the second death, first of all let me acknowledge that you have admitted that you don’t know what this death is, for you claim it is unlike the death that occurs to all men today. Before we get into this, I would like to ask a question. If the fate of unrepentant men is death—pure and simple, i.e. blackness of darkness etc. where no thoughts exist, why raise men up in order to kill them again? What purpose does this raising up serve, if their fate is to merely die once more and stay dead? Wouldn’t it be more logical and even more merciful to simply let them stay dead in the first place?
We have four Scriptures which point specifically to this **lake of fire**: Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10, 14-15. The beast and the false prophet were cast into this lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The Devil was cast into this lake of fire (Revelation 20:10). Those whose names were not written in the Book of Life were cast into this lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). But the problem is that both death and the grave were cast into this lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). If there were no verse-14 we could probably conclude that the fate of the people in v.15 was simply to be resurrected and cast into a lake of fire as punishment before going off to an eternity of darkness and thoughtlessness. However, we do have a verse-14, and we must deal with what it says. It says that the death we are familiar with will be cast into this lake burning with fire, and the grave (hades) will be put there too. In other words the fate of all therein is not “blackness of darkness” where no thoughts reside. They will have no grave, because both death and the grave are destroyed. Whatever the second death is, it has no graves and it does not separate those therein from the living, at least not in the same manner that the death with which we are familiar does.
Is there anything else we can say of this “second death” that would shed a bit of light upon what it really is? In Revelation 21:8 we find that all the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie shall have their place in this second death which still exists after the new heavens and new earth have taken form (Revelation 21:1; cp. Revelation 20:11). Revelation 21:27 seems to imply that those who dwell in the lake of fire, shall not enter into the New Jerusalem, the city of God. So, this second death or lake of fire co-exists with those who have their reward in Christ. But, what is this lake of fire and where is it located? Is there an actual place for it?
The Temple of Jerusalem was built according to the model of what was revealed about heaven and God’s throne. The earthly Temple had a sea contained in a large brass container. In the book of revelation we find this sea before the throne of God (Revelation 4:6 and 15:2), just as the sea contained in the brass was before the Temple of God at Jerusalem. In Revelation 15:2 we see that this sea was mingled with fire and those who had overcome the world were able to walk upon this sea just as Jesus had walked upon the Sea of Galilee in John 6. Is this glassy sea mingled with fire the same as the lake of fire found in Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14-15 and implied in Revelation 21:8?
First of all, we find that the earthly sea was used to purify everything that was used in the Temple for the purposes of God. Even the priests washed there. The sea of brass was intended to purify. Therefore, if we can see that the lake of fire is really the glassy sea mingled with fire that is situated before the throne of God, then whatever and whoever is cast therein **must** by reason of perfect imagery be placed there for purification purposes. In other words, there will come a time when the beast and false prophet, the Devil (Adam) and all the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie (Revelation 21:8) will be purified before God. This would be the logical purpose of the lake of fire, if, indeed, it can be shown to be the glassy sea mingled with fire.
First of all, the word for sea in Revelation 15:2 is not the same as that translated lake in Revelation 19, 20 and 21. Lake is limne (G3041), while the word “sea” in Revelation 15:2 is thalassa (G2281). Does this mean the two cannot be the same? No, it does not. Notice how both words are used in the Gospel accounts. Lake (limne – G3041) is used in Luke 5:1-2 and Luke 8:22-23, 33 to describe the Lake of Gennesaret, which is also the Sea of Galilee translated so in Matthew 4:18; 15:29; Mark 1:16; 7:31; and John 6:1. The point is that sea and lake are synonyms and are used interchangeably at the discretion of the writers of the Gospel narratives. This being so, it is reasonable to assume it is likewise used in Revelation to express two different points of view. The righteous are able to walk upon this sea (Revelation 15:2) unharmed (cp. Revelation 2:11 and 20:6). However, it is different for the unrighteous, for there is “torment” with their being cast into the midst of this lake of fire.
What does it mean to be “tormented” (basanizo – G928). The same word is used in Matthew 8:6 for the torment of a paralyzed person who can’t move. In Matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7 and Luke 8:28 it is used for the demoniac asking Jesus not to torment him before the “time” – meaning before the set time of the judgment. In Matthew 14:24 and Mark 6:48 it is used for the toil of the Apostles rowing against the winds on the Sea of Galilee and of the labor of the boat against the winds just before Jesus came walking to them on the water; in 2Peter 2:8 it is used for Lot being troubled in his spirit over the sins of Sodom. Finally in Revelation 12:2 it has to do with the labor of a woman during childbirth. The word seems to have to do with a struggle that one is made to endure due to one’s present circumstance: childbirth, storms at sea, a present condition of health, or even the knowing of coming punishment. On struggles with one’s present circumstance and this struggle is the torment one must endure. The difference in all of these with those in the lake of fire is that birth pains turn to joy, Jesus comforted his disciples and calmed the sea, Jesus had mercy on the demoniac and the paralyzed man, and they were healed. But those in the lake of fire shall struggle with their circumstance until they have paid the last farthing (Matthew 5:26). Their punishment will be without mercy, for they have shown no mercy to others during their lives.
The lake of fire has a very intimate relationship with God, himself, because in this lake both death (as we know it) and the grave are destroyed. However, in Hosea 13:14 it is God who destroys both death and the grave. He **is** their “death”! In Jeremiah 2:13 he is the Fountain of Living Waters. We are told to come to Jesus if we thirst (John 7:37), because he is that Rock out of which comes rivers of living water (1Corinthians 10:4). This is spoken of in John 7:37 by Jesus to indicate the Holy Spirit that came after Pentecost (John 7:38-39). For us it is meant for healing (Revelation 22:2; cp. Zechariah 14:8-11). On the other hand this fountain-sea-lake will be for punishment of the wicked, for it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God (Hebrews 10:30-31). Nevertheless, it is still better to fall into his hands than into the hands of men or the uncertain circumstance of nature (2Samuel 24:13-14), for ultimately there is a merciful end (2Samuel 24:15-16). By the way, it was upon this very spot that the Altar of God was built in the Temple (2Samuel 24:17-19). Ultimately, the death of Christ buys mercy for those in the lake of fire, which is really the glassy sea before his throne (Revelation 4:6), which has its likeness in the brassy sea in the Temple of God at Jerusalem, used to purify all the things used in the Temple, including the priests who ministered there.
You have claimed of me “Your argument is a very good logical argument but it is based in human understanding not the words of the Bible.” However, I have based everything I believe upon the Scriptures. Certainly, my argument is also based upon logic, but the Scriptures are not illogical. Thinking reasonably is a gift of God. Certainly the irrational suffer from a plague from which they need to be delivered. Therefore, if irrationality is a curse or a disease, then reasonableness is something godlike (Isaiah 1:18). Logical reasoning is something we need to use with the Scriptures to gain understanding.
Concerning the book of Enoch, I told you I considered it inspired in the same manner I might consider my pastor’s sermon, or a good commentary on the Bible. They are inspired, but not in the same manner in which the writers of the Bible were inspired. Enoch is not a book that made it into the Bible. Therefore, I don’t believe it is entirely accurate. Certainly, like all inspired literature, some truth lies within, but we must discover that truth by comparing such literature with Scripture. You may believe as you wish about the book.
Concerning Spock and my “refuting” the Scriptures you mentioned, I have not sought to refute Scripture, only the meaning you have placed upon that Scripture. Remember, our disagreement is not with the Scriptures but how we get from A to B. It is our interpretation that differs, and I don’t place much stock in the conclusions of Hollywood or TV programs, but I do agree with you that Spock is made to utter a truism—“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” I believe I have at least come closer to doing this than you have.
Lord bless you, Avery,
Eddie
2 John 6 (KJV 1900)
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Hi Avery,
I am uncertain as to what you mean by replying with a single verse and that without any commentary. In its context:
Jesus gave us this commandment just before he died (John 13:34), and John referred to it in his first epistle. It is not a new commandment, but it is new as far as how it is practiced is concerned (1John 2:7-8). We are in fellowship with Jesus if we keep his commandments which are (1) believe him and (2) love one another as he commanded us–i.e. as he loved us and gave himself for us (1John 3:22-23; cp. John 13:34).
Again, I am uncertain as to why there is no explanation with this single verse, but this is how I understand the verse you quoted. Hope all is well.
Lord bless,
Eddie
dear ed, i would rather you keep an open mind towards the “serpent being able to talk” issue, after all a donkey talked to balaam.